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Thread: Wheel torque.

  1. #1
    Admin ZR's Avatar
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    Cool Wheel torque.

    So another season of pulling snow tires off to install summer wheels is in full swing. As has become all too common, vehicle in today for brakes just had it's snows pulled off last Friday at another shop and summer wheels installed. First nut, barely came off with a 750ft lb+ impact gun, next one saw the stud break clean off, other three ridiculously tight but at least didn't break. Checked the other three wheels, not as tight but clearly none torqued to spec. Just as ridiculous, substantial build up of corrosion on the backside of the alum wheels plus similar build up of rust on the rotor faces where the wheels need to sit flat. Car, accident looking for a place to happen. Just as shitty, wheels took pulling on with the lugs to get them to slide over the hubs left them so tight (even with nuts off) that it took one hell of a smack from the backside to remove them, awesome if you had a flat out on the road. No excuse possible for a pro, if you change the wheels over yourself, need to pay attention to the above and always always always torque properly. When installing nuts, snug up in correct pattern with a 3/8 ratchet and socket to ensure the wheel is squarely on the hub and sitting dead nuts flat. When it's time to torque, first lug, do not bring up to full torque, make full torque the second or third one in the pattern then make a second full circle. Yes pattern you use is equally as important.
    Be safe.

  2. #2
    Club Supporter Old Fart's Avatar
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    This frustrates me as well. No reason for them to over-torque the nuts. I do the change-overs myself. In addition to what you wrote, I also clean the back side of the wheel and brake drums/rotor face with a brass wire brush and make sure there is no corrosion. Then I add a small amount of anti-seize compound to the mating area of the wheel. Works great for me.
    Mike

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  3. #3
    Admin ZR's Avatar
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    We use copper anti seize.
    Back side of the wheel / mounting face of rotors is what I mentioned had substantial build up on both.



  4. #4
    Admin ZR's Avatar
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    We are also seeing a number of cheap wheels the don't mount properly or have defects. Most common, an approx 1/8" deep by approx inch in diameter groove cut out of the backside around wheel mounting holes. Awesome when you consider how far the wheel needs to flex / bend to allow it's surface to contact the mounting face and achieve proper torque (most simply will not snug up properly). Keep in mind, these wheels are usually cast in gosh knows where to gosh knows what quality standards.



  5. #5
    Posting and liking.... Ponyryd's Avatar
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    I always give a quick shot of fluid-film around the hub, I can tell when I do this the next time the car is in, the wheel comes off no problem and there is still some residue there.
    Keep in mind as well not to use any lubricant on the studs as it can cause improper torque, if the studs are rusty clean them with a wire brush.

  6. #6
    Admin ZR's Avatar
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    Interesting lil blerb I recently came across, agree with poster. Yet to ever see an issue with lubed hub and threads, seen countless problems without. Few grasp the fact, torque is A about making sure nuts are tight enough but more importantly, about making sure there is uniform clamping force holding both the rim and rotor / brake drum securely and evenly in place. With the ridiculous amount of salt n brine on the roads these days, it's become a must have practice even on parts you'd once upon a time used loc tite.


    This subject comes up from time to time. And usually when it does, it falls into the same rabbit hole. Perhaps that is because it never seems to be examined from a common sense, practical standpoint. Everyone always seems to be too quick to pull out their engineering manuals. First off, let's examine the 2 biggest examples that come up against this practice. First is that the use of anti seize products on wheel studs will facilitate the loosening of the wheel nuts attached to them over time. The second is that the use of anti seize will cause over torqueing of the studs themselves. Thereby weakening and or stretching them, to the point of outright breaking them off.

    Let's first look at number 1. If the use of the anti seize products would in itself cause the studs to become loose over time, it only stands to reason it would do much the same in most all other threaded applications it was used in. We know for certain that is not the case. Anti seize is used in several other automotive applications without any loosening of bolts or nuts it was applied to over time. Cylinder head bolts. Water pump mounting bolts. Spark plugs, and shock absorber studs and nuts, just to name a few. Anti seize is not only recommended in many of these applications, in many cases it is a must to avoid broken bolts in the future when they are removed.

    Now let's examine number 2. In all forms of fastening with threaded nuts and bolts, a lubricated thread will require less torque to achieve the same clamping force, (or "pull" on the stud or bolt), as the same fastener that is used dry. So in this regard the statement is true. The same foot pounds of torque applied to a lubricated thread will achieve a greater amount of stress on the bolt or stud, than the same torque applied to a dry threaded fastener of the same size and type.

    This additional force in the case of most automotive wheel studs is around 20% to 30%. So when anti seize is applied, all that is required is to apply around 25% LESS torque to accomplish the same task. The nut will not come loose. Nor will it be subjected to any additional stress. For example, if a dry wheel nut is rated to be torqued at 100 ft. lbs. when torqued dry. Then simply reduce the torque to 75 to 80 ft. lbs. if that stud has anti seize applied to it. Proper torque is what keeps nuts and bolts properly tightened..... NOT rusty, dry threads.

    So in conclusion there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with using anti seize on lug nuts and studs. Any more than it is in other applications. It will not only transfer torque easier. It will also prevent rust and corrosion of the threads. And by doing so will facilitate the easy removal of said wheel nuts when the time comes. Without heavy, unnecessary torque that very well might cause the stud to snap off.

    I have used anti seize on all of my vehicles wheel lugs and studs for the last 50 years. And I have NEVER had a wheel stud break. Or a wheel nut come loose... EVER. Nor have I ever heard of one doing so. With that said, I have seen on several occasions, studs break off from being frozen, rusty, and corroded. So in closing I will say I will continue this practice, simply because I have never seen, or come across a situation that has shown me it would be better to not.

  7. #7
    Club Supporter hammerhead's Avatar
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    I've been working with truck wheels for over twenty years - most tire guys as they are called in trucking don't give a rats ass about wheel torque. Most times they are over tight because 1" drive impact gun makes 1200 ft. pds of torque and the wheel only needs to be between 450-500. I never add any type of lube to studs. Reasons: any spray type lube greatly over torques the nut - i don't concern myself too much with the stud breaking but getting the nuts off afterwards is a bitch if tightened with the full 1200 pd. force. The gun does not make the same torque in reverse - the hammer in the gun gets damaged from the pounding and i've seen 33 mil sockets fly apart from the extreme pounding the 1' drive impact gun can give. Second most of my work and many truck tires are change outdoor - in extreme cold thin spray lube freezes and may not torque to speck - i see this especially with anti-seize it gets very thick when frozen especially if it is just globed on also attracts dirt which also thickens it over time and is a problem for the next guy who may have to do the tire change. This practice will not allow all four hub faces on a tandem wheel secure properly and come loose. I don't really see the need for it on cars with the 90 ft pds needed but it is important to ensure all hub faces are are clean and even surfaces to secure evenly, but i don't see using lube as being a big issue either. I also recommend doing it by hand opposed to power tools it's not that difficult to achieve 90 ft. pounds.
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  8. #8
    Member Mellow Yellow's Avatar
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    Was changing the winters to summers on the Fusion Saturday. It has those decorative lug nuts with the thin metal covering, Well at least one of the coverings were rounded or not capable of having a socket properly fit. Had to get it off with an air chisel. Part of the reason was over torquing; last time I had the summer to winter changeover done by the dealer. I wound up buying new log nuts.


    One time we were going to work on my sons brakes, I had to use a six foot section of pipe to break the lugs loose on a Cobalt! Would never have been able to change a tire on the road.


    BTW how do you know what the recommended torque is. I assume different from Mustang to Fusion to F150

  9. #9
    Admin ZR's Avatar
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    On a 1/2" stud, 90 - 95lbs.
    If your going to the track, suggest only rechecking after the wheels have cooled down, never smokin hot.
    Tin covered wheel nuts, bane of mine and everyone else that works on vehicles existence. Moisture / salt gets under the cover and rusts the steel nut underneath which in turn expands the cover either splitting it or making it impossible to get a socket on properly.

  10. #10
    Die Winter Die Snaketamer's Avatar
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    So this guys article recommends 25% lest torque on lugs/studs with anti-seize(my F150 req'd 150ft/bls would be 115ft/lbs?)....should I loosen them?
    I hate those tin covered lugs also...only reason I haven't changed then on the truck is because I use breaker bar/torque wrench(no impact) and don't run them in the winter. My son's G6 lugs gave me fits....

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